Brand Design Masters Podcast

Experience Transformative Growth with Joseph Bojang
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Philip VanDusen: Hey, everybody. Welcome back today. I have a super special guest who's a fellow member of a peer mastermind that I'm part of. Actually, his name's Joseph Bojang and Joseph's a certified coach specializing in human behavior, marketing and business with a master's degree in human relations and extensive entrepreneurial experience running a marketing agency.

He offers a really unique blend of expertise, emphasizing the importance of self discovery and authentic goal setting to achieve lasting fulfillment in your personal and your professional life. Joseph's passion about guiding individuals and organizations through transformative growth. He does this by helping them shift their perspectives beyond merely transactional solutions.

Through his coaching, workshops, and group mentorship, Joseph empowers his clients to navigate complex dilemmas and realize their full potential. And with that, I'd like to welcome Joseph. Thank you for having me. I think it's really interesting that you had a career in marketing before you moved into this realm of coaching.

When inspired you to make that transition from one to the other?

Joseph Bojang: Yeah and I would say I got into marketing because I had a previous career in helping people, but I started noticing that the amount of money I made wasn't going to help me when I wanted to start having kids and things like that. The transition really took off.

Yeah. I started from being in a field of working with people, moving more into marketing because I was creating websites on the side, I'd finish a website and then a person would say something like, what do we do now? And that's what really got me into marketing and just understanding that it's the same things that people have problems and you're trying to help them find a solution to that problem is probably the easiest way to say for marketing.

And it was very clear, like people knew what they were hiring me for, I need help with my ads, I need more leads, I need you to help me do that, and if I did it, then we were happy, they were happy, I was happy but then I noticed that there was a part of me that I really enjoyed doing it, I loved being able to work with people and help get them results, but I would say it wasn't necessarily one of those things that I looked at as what I'm here for.

Or living into my full potential. And I think that was something that I started to notice because people would ask how do I work with you? And over time I started to notice I'm not really trying to make myself more available for marketing because I've always wanted to. Work with people and work with people primarily in helping them find out what's important to their life and pursue it So it wasn't until probably 2019.

I saw a coach and She was excellent. And I would say it's the first time that I actually saw a coach that was good at coaching Not just telling people what to do or giving advice, but helping people understand how to tap into their inner confidence and one word or I've heard someone talk about confidence is that it's like with trust meaning that you can have trust inside of yourself, feed a The, the Latin word and with, so with trust and finding that inside of yourself and having the energy to go out and pursue what's really important for you and having a partner there that's walking alongside of you.

Not someone that's leading you where to go, but actually is a partner as you're trying to navigate what's happening, where you could go. After seeing her coach live, I was like that's what I want to do. That's how I want to help people. And it just started that transition from. Making some real scary decisions and moving towards something that I felt that would bring me more life.

Philip VanDusen: So your career transition yourself formed your approach, or at least your idea of being a coach, but has it really changed? been formative in terms of how you approach coaching with your clients?

Joseph Bojang: It has, and I would say that was if I think of the problems that I ran into, and I talk about problems and dilemmas but the problems I always ran into was I need to make more money, what's the solution?

I'm not satisfied with the work I'm doing, what's the solution? And I noticed that there were times when I was actually wanting help and people were giving me solutions that didn't quite work for me. And that's when I saw that this woman coaching, her name is Valerie Burton, and I saw her coaching and I was like, Oh there's an element that's missing from our normal logical reasoning.

To move to something that should make us happy, but many times I was getting that in my career and then asking what's next and all the options didn't quite fit. So I noticed that there was something about learning how to fix my problems and get solutions that led me to that's only one level.

That's only one level of happiness, the other part is actually what do you do when you're in a dilemma? And I was in dilemmas, and I was trying to fix it a certain way that it just wouldn't happen. So I noticed that in myself, and then I also noticed that with people I worked with, to where they would say, how do I get more leads?

And I would say, this is what you need to do to get more leads. And they wouldn't do it. That's where that phrase of when you're no longer stuck in how to, but you're stuck in a story. How do you move forward? That's where that came from. But I would absolutely say to what you just stated is it all started because I noticed this happening in me and also seeing it in others as well.

So I think that was a big part of it.

Philip VanDusen: So when you, I thank you, number one, again, for coming to speak with the Bonfire Mastermind community that I run the other day, you came and did a bit of a workshop and everyone absolutely loved it. And in that workshop, you talked about problems and dilemmas. And can you explain the difference between what you mean between a problem and a dilemma?

Joseph Bojang: Yeah I think the biggest way I heard a, he's a screenwriter, his name is Alan Watt, which is different than Alan Watts which many people know him. But whenever Alan Watt is teaching people to write stories, he says that a lot of people are viewing everything as a problem and a solution, which is logical.

We reason our way through it, and it's very easy to get to the other side. But what makes a really good story is something. Where the character has a dilemma and the dilemma is not something that you can just reason your way through, but you actually have to surrender one idea that you have of yourself in order to get what you really want.

A quick example could be someone that's in prison and they want to be free. So the dilemma is they break out of prison and they're free and how they understood it But then they realize they're really not free because they're on the run and that's what makes a really good story is whenever we're in these dilemmas and So through coaching one of the ways that I really love is to help folks is to help them identify what the dilemma is, what they're holding onto and what they're going for and how they have to surrender one part of their story in order to live into a new part.

And that dilemma is something that we're not really taught. There's not many courses on it because it feels a little fuzzy sometimes, like how do you change your story? And there's some really good research out. And There's a different ways and I'll just be brief here but there's two main ways that we can get in a mode to where we can start working with dilemmas.

The number one thing is that we have to feel safe. Barry Mason talks about safe uncertainty, so we have to be psychologically, emotionally, financially, physically, like safety is a really big part of us being able to move into unknown areas. And what's happening is in our mind, we are allowing our default mode to actually allow us to think internally, to have internal conversations.

We're not task oriented, and we're also allowing our nervous system to relax and to be in rest and digest and to be able to start thinking creatively about what we want in life. And that's a very difficult thing because life is always throwing things at us. That put us in stress and we have to react.

We have to be task oriented. So it's hard for people to make the time in order to relax the brain and relax the nervous system in order to think about what is it that I really want? How do I change my relationship with the problems that are being presented to me? How do I work through the dilemmas in my life?

Can I give myself permission to give myself time to just be and not pursue a goal and not put something on the checklist? So that's a very difficult thing. But I think research is starting to show some great ways of how people can deal with their nervous system, their brain, what's actually happening in the body that allows people to.

see that I actually have to get in a place where I feel comfortable to pursue things that are scary. I feel brave enough to take that first step on a journey that I don't know where it's going to land, but I'm willing to do it because what I'm doing right now isn't going to work long term.

Philip VanDusen: So when you were talking, I couldn't help but think about meditation.

I've been practicing meditation for a long time and getting deeper into that recently. And one of the things that I've learned about it is that A, your mind never stops. Your mind wants to chew on something all the time. It's very difficult to create a sense of space. And it takes a lot of practice, but when you can do that, a lot of times your mind opens up and becomes much more creative.

You might have noticed that when you're in the shower and you're relaxed and the hot water is hitting you that's when your ideas come and you always want to have something to write it down, right? And or you're out walking the dog and you're in this kind of flow state, but it's very meditative and very quiet.

You're in nature and suddenly you get all these creative ideas start to, to generate. Is that to a certain extent, the kind of safety that you're talking about when you're trying to give your clients a level of safety and calm so they can, you Come to these answers. How do you orchestrate that sort of safety that your clients feel psychologically safe so they can explore their dilemmas?

I guess with you.

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, so one that one of the guys who has done a lot of research points to things like mindfulness, meditation, prayer, yoga, whatever you can do to actually put yourself in a state to where the monkey mind isn't ruling. So you're exactly. Spot on. One of the things that I notice is and this is just, this is for me and I think for most people is you can't tell your body to calm down.

I was recently in a situation where I was part of a corporation. They were trying to set some goals and they were moving really fast. And I noticed at a point where my body was dysregulated. And what I mean by that is my voice was starting to shake because I was a little bit in fight or not a little bit.

I was in fight or flight and I noticed that I was My nervous system was not giving its vote to what was happening in the meeting in my mind, and this is where we talk about the two. There's a task oriented network or mode in our mind to where we shut off everything else but the task that we have to do.

And then there's the default mode where we actually are in a place of calm and we can have these great conversations. So my mind was recognizing Okay. What's happening in my body is physiological. I can't stop it. I can't tell myself to feel safe right now because it does not feel safe. So I think one of the biggest things is that people have to do mindfulness practices to realize what's happening in their body.

One of the biggest things I ask people in coaching relationships is when something's not going right, Where do you feel that in your body? And one of the things we work on is getting them to locate different things that happen throughout their day. That's preventing them from move forward on growing their business, having the relationships they want, or having the life they want and locating it in their body.

And once we can start locating it in our body, we can actually be more mindful of. What it actually wants us to do, or what we've done historically. And part of that actually allows us to get information that we have a little bit more power to make decisions with. So part of that safety is one, recognizing things are always happening in our body.

We can't always control them, but if we can be aware of them, we can start working with it and using those mindfulness practices in the moment. And it might be a horrible, At first, because we might be beginner at practicing mindfulness and calming ourselves down, but over time, I think it gives us that power back to where we can start navigating on what it feels like to be unsafe, what we normally want to do when we're unsafe, how we can start pulling that back and then creating different situations.

Even after the fact, a lot of this is going to be reflection of what happened. So in the moment, I know that when my body was unregulated and it wanted me to say some things. I was able to get back online, but I've still wasn't fully there. And it took me until after the meeting to actually process it more.

But I did some things that I didn't embarrass myself or embarrass others. And that's the real win. So I think with clients, it's about getting them in a mode to where they understand that life is always throwing something difficult. There's people that want something in their email. There's a.

partner or spouse that wants something or has expectations, there's odds that we have of ourselves that we've been given through certain messages, and all these things are always wanting something from us. But if we could take a moment to get to a place where we feel safe to ask ourselves what wants to come in through the world through me?

And am I willing to pursue it? And then there we go from that point.

Philip VanDusen: I think it's interesting because in a lot of ways you're talking about dualities or accepting dualities and when we were talking about meditation, I always go to yoga and my wife has this t shirt that I love. It just says yoga hurts and yoga does when you're practicing it, it does hurt.

And so you're constantly trying to find, you're trying to stretch yourself a little bit, but find peace within the stretch. And I've always found yoga to be this beautiful kind of metaphor for life or growth, in that you have to, you're, you are constantly pushing yourself and in this state of discomfort to an extent, but you're needing to practice finding peace and calm within that constant of, Stress and I think in a lot of ways that's to a certain extent what you're talking about to find growth within the dilemma or to Find an alternate, you know getting unstuck from your story in a way because those world Constants that influx of life never really stops So it's a question of developing the skill sets or the message the methods or the techniques I think To find that calm and that ability to navigate through those things in spite of what you're being thrown

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, and I think I love that.

I think you said there's pain within the stretch there's pleasure within the stretch and that's one of those things. I know we've talked about before of Passion to where passion it literally means suffer and the idea of suffering but still doing something we're passionate about that You brings us alive.

And I think most things I know that from your history, you were a painter. And I would imagine there's times that it felt like suffering when you couldn't get a hand right or a nose right. And I think that happens to a lot of entrepreneurs as well as we're building a business or even if I'm an employee in a company the things that I want to do a lot of the times there's pain.

In pursuing it because of the feedback we get from a boss. That's not really good or the feedback we get from a client. That's not really good. How do we continue to push forward? Or does that just take the energy out of us? So when we get back to the state of understanding that I'm asking myself and I'm in that default mode, I'm not task oriented.

It allows me to inflate my energy. To consistently pursue what's important. So that might be a good note for people who have goals, have dreams or building a brand or building their business, and they notice that they don't have the energy to pursue a lot of the times it's. A goal that is no longer supported by who they are.

So the motivation to actually get up and go pursue it isn't there, or they've actively suppressed or repressed it for many different reasons. So part of this is understanding that. In pursuit of something, it will be pleasurable, it will be pain, but in doing that, there's a benefit that allows us to, to develop and grow.

And the next time, it's a little bit easier. A little bit easier. Might hurt a little bit less. But then we start liking that, that stretch. That stretch feels good. Oh, okay. I like

Philip VanDusen: this. Yeah, exactly. I love that. That is so good. That is so cool. They align so perfectly. So one of the things that I use in branding a lot and strategy are the use of archetypes.

And helping companies discover, decide on, and follow the, their archetype. And when you were sharing with the Bonfire Group, you introduced the idea of archetypes in terms of personal development. And I'd love, I love it. I, first of all, I had never heard archetypes used in that sort of way in a one on one kind of coaching methodology.

Could you talk a little bit more about why you use archetypes and how they're used in the work that you do? Thank you.

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, and I'll start by maybe giving a brief understanding of how I even view it in marketing, and I know that you use them quite often, but one thing that makes archetypes very helpful in branding is that we're managing meaning, and in managing meaning, it's easy for a customer to remember what we're about.

And the thing about it is most companies don't want to change the archetypes that they speak from because you want people to understand your brand and what you're about. So if you change it over time that can be confusing. The difference is when we are looking at coaching or even personal growth or transformation, We have access to all the archetypes and this idea of archetypes comes from depth psychology and a guy named Carl G.

Jung, and he talked about archetypes in a way to where they're accessible to everyone. It's a software of the psyche. So to speak, he didn't use those words because I don't think they had software when he was around but Carol S. Pearson, she talks about certain archetypes that are great for our transformation, and the thing about it is when we normally get stuck, there are archetypes that we're not allowing to come through us, so it's important to ask ourselves, what energy am I not allowing to come through me in its archetypal form?

I'll give an example, because some people might be like, this is cool, but I don't know if I'm I'll I'm quite following. So for me if you think of archetypes as a water well, at the very top of the well, if you dip your book, get your bucket into the well you're getting the water that's at the top.

So for me, the archetypes that were at the top that I rely on the most to grow my business, to Show myself to the world or the warrior archetype. I set goals and I go after them hard. I'll fight for my boundaries The sage I like to think about difficult topics and Talk about them and make it easier for other people to Understand.

I'm a seeker explorer. I'm willing to go out and figure out things that Don't keep me Contained, but I, don't contain me. I want to go out and find out other things. So those are the things that if you're thinking about. of a well of archetypes I'm relying on all the time. Now, where this would create a problem for me in business or in relationships is that when there's a time that I could use the jester and make a joke or just be present or use some humor, I'm not relying on that archetype to come through me.

I'm actively pushing it down because a lot of the messages I got about funny people or comedians or jesters where they were unserious and they don't achieve their goals. Those were the messages I got as a young kid, so when it comes to a business context or relationships, I'm not allowing that archetype to come through me, and instead I'm suppressing it, so I'm looking at any disagreement or when we're not on the same page as a goal.

We get on the meeting, what are our goals today? What are we going after? And if someone wants to get off topic, I'm pursuing it in a way that really doesn't allow for us to connect and have the right relationship. So allowing these archetypes in every form, it shows flexibility if I can actually allow all of them to come through.

And when I'm not allowing them to come through, that's where there could be some work of how that prevents me and how that causes the dilemma that we talked about earlier. Because I'm stuck in a story and the story doesn't allow. I'm saying energy because from Carl Jung, the idea is that we feel energy to speak.

We feel energy to act out if we see something wrong, if we see something, and that's where the archetype is. So if I see something wrong and I want to go to, Defend someone that's an archetype that just comes out and into the world. So this idea in Coaching and how I use it is based off of where's the person getting stuck?

Which ones are you relying on which ones are you actually not allowing to come through? How is that preventing you from moving forward towards your goals? And that's part of the work. And in order for people to believe that's going to help them, once again, they have to get to a point to where they're willing to ask themselves difficult questions.

They're willing to look at themselves and that's not always an easy thing to do. So it does take work to reflect, to write, to journal, to discuss, and to keep that as something that we're always looking at.

Philip VanDusen: I'm in, I'm big into trends and we're at the, we're at the, the beginning of the year, soon to be the beginning of the year.

And I was wondering when you're working with coaching clients, not so much like the early career, but more of the mid to late career people that you coach, are you seeing any trends in terms of the sorts of people who are seeking coaching and what they may be struggling with? Absolutely. Absolutely. Are there any commonalities?

Yeah I would say

Joseph Bojang: it I like to say a phrase there's patterns, not prescriptions. I think trends are a great way of, things happening, going down, but then happening in a new way, but then going down and coming back up. There's probably other ways to describe it. My ideal person to work with is someone that is in transformation, and the best way to think of that is like a butterfly when it's in the cocoon, and it's reformed, and that's a very scary process, you're, you feel like nothing because you're about to become something you've never been before, and no one can tell you what that will be like to do.

For the first time have wings and do something you've never done because you've been crawling your whole life. So generally my clients are probably over 35 And they've formed themselves enough to where they know how to get along in the world They are good at what they do But they realize that there's more that they could be offering and I would say when it comes to trend the trend is always being willing to occupy I And the word occupy means to seize or take control, to occupy their story and to take control of it and to say, regardless of what I've been, what I've known for, am I willing to be in control of my story moving forward now?

And whether it's, they're leaving a corporate job or getting a job because they were an entrepreneur. I would say the trend would be that thing. Maybe it's the thing that I see the most because of. What people know me for so maybe I attract a certain person that has the same issues that I have but it's really about Am I willing to say yes to me?

And by saying yes to me There's an abundance of my gifting my skills that are not only pouring out of me But helping those around me and that's a scary thing to do because other people for a while You're gonna look we're doing it and they're thinking You who are you? Who are you to go post content and do that thing?

And so I would say the trend is, like, how do they occupy their story? What wants to come into the world through them? And that's a very hard thing to do. More specifically to your question, I would say the trend, I hope it's not a trend. But I would say the trend is for people to actually just be more aware that it's not just about hitting goals.

It's not just about making money. I think that was a trend for a while to grow a six figure business, grow a seven figure business create your signature course. A lot of folks wanted to do those things, but then I think they started realizing there was something more than they wanted. Then that success script of go be a great entrepreneur, so I hope it's not a trend But it's actually people becoming aware that I don't care if I have a six figure or seven figure business I just want to do things that make me happy and help a few people that I know and Hopefully it's not a trend, but that's the trend I see

Philip VanDusen: Yeah, I think that there, I see a similar trend in the search for meaning and I think that COVID really put that on steroids and the reason why is because a lot of us, because we are on hamster wheels, we are dealing with life and repetitive cycles and going to work and coming home and going on vacation and the kids going to school and, okay.

It's on and on COVID suddenly slammed the brakes on the entire country's lives all at once, and it made everyone was stuck at home, and suddenly everyone their repetitive thought cycles. We're suddenly ground to a halt, and it made them reconsider just about everything in their lives all at once.

And everyone was doing it as a societal, movement of sorts. And so I think that has really affected it personally. And I'm sick.

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, that's so good because it reminds me of every corporation was like work from home. It's fine. And now they're like, come back in. It's not fine.

And I don't want you

Philip VanDusen: questioning your life. Please don't please get back on our hamster wheel, please.

Joseph Bojang: Yeah. And so I think to what you're saying, COVID, that's a great example of something happened. And now there's a response or a reaction to it, but there's some people that are like, I still want to pursue what I learned about myself during COVID that I wasn't happy with the work I'm doing.

But is the trend now to ignore that? Some people are saying yes, some are saying no, but it's a very difficult situation.

Philip VanDusen: Yeah. How do you think someone. Knows when they need coaching. Is there something a commonality that you hear from people as they come to you about what it is? That they're struggling with or what the kind of watershed moment was where they realized that they needed You know an external opinion or guide.

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, I have two Two answers for this one is I think everyone needs coaching. I think One person actually talked about this. I think it was some big time CEO. I can't remember if it's Steve Jobs or someone like that, to where how important a coach is. So I think everyone needs a coach. The problem is that there's not many good coaches.

And that's what prevented me from wanting to be a coach for a very long time. So part of it is understanding what type of person do you Want to be coached by and trying out people trying out coaches and saying if it's a good fit for you Or if it's not a good fit and realizing that not all coaches are the same some have different perspectives some are going to want to advise more than actually coach so I would say the biggest thing is Getting to a point to where the people that are the most senior and some of the biggest businesses in the world have coaches, have executive coaches.

So when I realized that, I wondered for myself when I was working for a company and the CEO had a coach, why didn't I have a coach? Why is the CEO having a coach? What is he learning that I'm not? And I think if people could actually think that way, there's something that could always be valuable. Right now I have a book coach that's helping me as I write a book.

I have another peer coach that I go to just to get coaching from. And I think there's many different ways, but coaching is great when you're not looking for someone to tell you what to do. But someone that will allow you to take your spaghetti brain, all the thoughts you have that are wrapped up, but will help you take it outside of your head, so to speak, and look at it and help you untangle it.

And when you're ready for that, I think having a coach that fits your perspective and they come from a perspective that you respect is a great thing.

Philip VanDusen: Yeah, it's funny that you talk about spaghetti. I had a Consulting client who actually called me the spaghetti straightener at one point because she is a classic entrepreneur had 10 million ideas that were constantly some of which were great, some of which were completely distracting.

And she had a really hard time analyzing and evaluating them and prioritizing them or shedding them if need be. And I think also good coaches have a tendency to be analytical thinkers because they can sort through that spaghetti to an extent. And How what piece of advice would you give an entrepreneur or a creative professional who feels overwhelmed by their business goals?

What, if, is there a snack size piece of advice that you can give people?

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, I would say one thing, and this ties into your, what you just mentioned about being the spaghetti Straightener. Straightener. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes entrepreneurs or even just people that are working as an employee somewhere their spouse, their partner, their whoever is in their life, isn't interested in what's happening in their work, isn't interested in the drama.

Of personalities, so even just having a coach to help think through that stuff is a, another good reason when you might want to have a coach. So I've been a business owner for a while, and there's times that my wife, she just didn't care. She didn't care what was happening in my business. So I think that's another reason and to what you were saying and repeat that last question for me one more time.

Philip VanDusen: What snack sized piece of advice would you give an entrepreneur or creative professional who is struggling with being overwhelmed by their business goals? Recognize

Joseph Bojang: it's normal.

Philip VanDusen: Try

Joseph Bojang: to understand what's creating the problem. Is it a limitation of knowledge? Is it a limitation of education? Or do you need a mentor or coach?

And journal. Those would be the things that I would say is overwhelm is going to happen. Sometimes the overwhelm is because we have to be someone we're not, and that's not great. Sometimes it's we're not who we want to be and that's not great, but I think it, at the end of the day, there's just a few things that we have to do and if you could find someone that can, it could be a partner, it could be a coach, but knowing that overwhelm is quite normal and There will be days where it feels like everything's going to burn and that's going to happen.

But having someone there journaling about it, what happened last time this happened? Did everything burn? No. Okay. It didn't burn. Okay. Yeah, maybe I can make a different decision this time.

Philip VanDusen: So I use journaling a lot to process feelings and emotions and thoughts or ideas. What is it about journaling that, that is beneficial for your coaching clients and why do you recommend it to them?

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, one person talks about it slows down your thinking. So we naturally have ways that our brain wants to operate. Actually, let's do this real quick. This is one of those fun things. Normally what I do is I'll have people say their zip code. They have no problem. And then I'll ask them to say it backwards.

They have every problem. Then I'll say it backwards again. And then by the fifth time, they can say their zip code backwards with no problem because they've created a new path. So one of the things that I think is important is to help people understand that when we're not journaling, our brain is Jumping to so many different conclusions, depending on our state, meaning that does someone say something to us with a straight face and I haven't talked to them in a long time.

What do I think of that? Is it based off of how there's so many different ways that I might think of interactions of situations of stories that I'm stuck in how my brain naturally works. So journaling is one of those things that allows us to do something slowing down. In order to reflect and then we can also come back to it over time I've noticed in my journals that there's things that i've struggled with for two years And sometimes around the same time of the year what's happening there for me?

And it's great to have a way that I can come back and look at it. I will say this too. I Also recommend writing in cursive. I recommend changing hands, writing with your left hand. I recommend doing it in different ways and being creative about it to find out what works for you. And sometimes you need prompts.

Sometimes you just need to write three things you're grateful for. There's so many ways to do it, but I think journaling slows us down in order to think about things in a way that we don't normally do.

Philip VanDusen: I love that. And I think that's a good place to tie it up. And I think I would recommend anybody who's listening, if you haven't tried journaling, you definitely should.

There's a book called The Artist's Way where they recommend morning pages, which is a whole process of journaling that you do on a repetitive Kind of way, and there's a formula to it. And if you haven't read that book or tried that process, I highly recommend it. So Joseph Bojang, thank you so much for coming in and talk to us today.

Is there anything that you'd like, if people want to get in touch with you, where do you want them to go and what do you want them to do?

Joseph Bojang: Yeah, I'd say the easiest way is to connect on LinkedIn. I'm looking to do more LinkedIn in 2025. So Joseph Bojang, I shouldn't be too hard to find. But yeah, connect on LinkedIn.

Philip VanDusen: Excellent. I'll have the link in the show notes for anyone listening. And with that, Joseph, thanks for coming and I hope you have on the show again soon. Thank you, Philip.