Navigating Career Transitions and Inflection Points - with Kathy Oneto
Kathy Oneto + Philip VanDusen - Navigating Career Transitions and Inflection Points
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Kathy Oneto: Hi, Philip. How are you doing today?
Philip VanDusen: I'm good, Kathy. It's good to talk to you again.
Kathy Oneto: I know. I'm so thrilled that you were willing to come on the podcast again and have this conversation. I know we might, you might share this on your podcast as well, so I, you are one of my favorite people to talk to.
I think you know that. I love being in conversation with you.
Philip VanDusen: Thank you
Kathy Oneto: on and off the podcast more off the podcast. But obviously I like being in conversation with you here too. You are one of my repeat guests on the podcast and , I wanted to invite you back because I wanted to explore today in this conversation the idea of moving through transitions or navigating change in the context of sustainable ambition.
So when I think about sustainable ambition, part of it is about how do we navigate? Across our life and our careers over time, and how do we handle these ebbs and flows and the changes. And it's not uncommon that really it's at these inflection points and when people are experiencing discomfort or going through some change.
That they enter into these types of explorations and really start asking themselves these questions, right? If things are running smoothly and going along, like there's no reason to often pause and we go on autopilot, which I think both of us would be like, be careful about that. These moments in time.
When we're going through inflection points, when we're going through transitions and changes are really important, and both of us have been going through those recently and we've gone through them over the course of our lives and careers. Not surprisingly, most of us do which is what we talk about.
But I think because we've been going through these transitions and we've been talking about them offline, I thought it'd be interesting for us to come here and talk a little bit about. Our experiences and some of the lessons that we've experienced and dig into that a little bit. To start, I might just ask you, and then if you wanna ask me, I'm happy to share as well.
, Of course this is gonna be a conversation back and forth, but perhaps like what is the transition you're going through right now and what has it been, what's that experience been like for you?
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, I, you know my history, but I've had a 30 year career on bouncing back and forth between big global agencies and corp, corporate side global corporations.
And I've always enjoyed and found usefulness in that symbiotic, crossing of the street and when I went solo about a decade ago. It was a completely different world. I stepped into something that I knew absolutely nothing about, essentially. And so it was this real weird feeling in the fact that I had, I was very seasoned as a professional.
, I'd had a very successful career and suddenly I was like the newbie, like totally newbie on so many different levels. And so I've spent the last decade building a solo. Branding consultancy, and I've done that through content marketing and through my YouTube channel, through my podcast, through masterminds I've run speaking, developing a course, et cetera.
All of the newsletter, all the things that, that are part and parcel of solo entrepreneurship in the creator economy. And so in the last 10 years I've been building, building, building. I've been on a growth a growth tear. And so I'm, , approaching semi mean retirement at this point.
And actually at the moment, the transition that I'm looking at is one of consolidation. And so I'm really reconsidering and reevaluating all of the different things that I've built. And when I lay them out on paper, when I do my goals every year, I'm like, oh my God, I'm doing so much. How can I be doing all this stuff?
And so it's coming to the point now where I'm really actually trying to. Carve down what I'm doing to the most essential and most rewarding things that I want to be doing in this move into semi-retirement. And so, that's the transition that I'm going through right now. And it's like.
Killing your babies. You know, because I've, I've, every one of these things that I've built has taken, a lot of energy and the sweat equity and concentration and it's hard to let them go. I just recently put a, I closed. Even though Facebook, this is a whole nother thing, FA, Facebook doesn't let you delete.
Groups that you start, you have to actually, every single person that you add to the group, you have to take them out one by one. And so I started a free Facebook group. I've got about 9,000 people in it, right? And I, but I just haven't been able to focus on it or concentrate on it. And so I decided to close it, to archive it, put it on mothballs.
I've been running that thing for seven years and it was great. It had a lot of life and energy at one point, but it's been slowing down and I just thought, I really don't wanna be splitting my energy. And so I decided to close that group and I just did it a few days ago.
But that sort of thing is really hard. It's hard to consolidate, but one of the things that I've learned in my career is the more you focus your energy, the more, more fruitful where you are spending your energy, it be the more fruitful it becomes. But, it's this push and pull between ambition and the creativity of growth and then this consolidation of refinement.
And I think that there's some of that goes on throughout our entire careers, but it's just been, in this particular time in my career,, very clear and poignant.
Kathy Oneto: I really love this. , I can really relate to what you're sharing, Philip, and I didn't expect that actually to see, I knew there were gonna be threads in our conversation.
Like you, I went out on my own and I wanted to build a body of work and I too have created content and I've really been moving through the transition post book launch and five years of exploring sustainable ambition and getting to this mark. Just wondering like, where do I go from here?
And it's not like I don't have ideas and I'm not abandoning sustainable ambition. I still have a lot of interest in this topic and the, I think it's a deep topic of exploration that has a lot of different vectors. I too am at a state of consolidation, if you will. And, I think I've allowed myself over the last five years, just very broadly in across my life and work to flare, if you will, or go and have broad exploration in some respects.
And yet it was focused in some ways. And yet I've allowed myself to live in many different worlds and I am desiring to. Continue to wear multiple hats, but to bring those together in a more consolidated view, if you will. So I don't feel like I'm so bifurcated as an individual and in some respects in doing that, simplifying, creating focus et cetera.
But it, it is what part of what you're talking about and sharing. That Facebook example and this process you're going through. And one thing that I've explored, and yet I'm still a little struggled with, which is how do we allow for some things to just be complete and be like, this is done.
And also in that then, maybe take it into its next evolution, but then also allow ourselves to subtract some things. , And you and I have talked about. Creativity and the creative process, and I've grown to believe or have this idea that. Ambitions, individual ambitions or goals. I think follow a creative arc is my hypothesis.
And I've shared in a prior podcast episode that I,, really looked to some creative reading to help me at the end of my book process to say, can I allow that to be complete in some respects? But it's really hard because it's well, that's complete, but it still lives on. It's not like I wanna com, completely ignore.
That body of work or the book or, but there is something about. Allowing yourself to be complete with something so that you can create space or move through this transition. So I don't know if that resonates with you at all.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, it totally does. And I, I think,, I come from, or I live in the world of the creative professionals, and so creative professionals always have that bifurcated existence that you're talking about because many of them have a.
Creative pursuit where they are expressing themselves and making a living doing some sort of creative pursuit. And then they usually have some sort of creative outlet outside of their job that feeds them without anyone being able to put their thumbprint on that creativity. 'cause in the professional world, everyone puts their thumbprint on your creativity and it's one of the major frustrations of that.
And so I think that also. Is, it's a complexity in life, balance of life and career that creative professionals, I think, have a, a little particularly hard time about it because that they have this need to be expressing themselves and they want. But then lots of times they have many, many different avenues of creativity they express themselves in.
They might be painting, they might be doing dance, they might be doing sculpture or doing crafts or whatever. Those things. And a lot of creatives struggle with what I call multi creativity. And when I coach people who are struggling with that, the one question I always ask them is that particular pursuit serving you right now?
Do you feel like it is serving you? And that could be serving you in terms of, and another way I like to look at it or talk about it is, does it feed your energy or does it drain your energy? And if you are doing something that is contributing more to guilt than it is to inspiration, then that's a signal that you can let it go.
And here's the other thing that makes it a lot easier to go through this transitional point where you're. In a creative arc and building a career or building, content empire, whatever it is that you're building, is that if something isn't serving you, you can put it down, but it doesn't mean that you have to put it down forever.
You can say that is thing is just not serving me right now. But if someday I find that I'm curious about what it would be like to get back into that thing or to pick that thing back up, I can do that. I'm not saying just because I'm not doing it now, I'm not doing it forever. And if you give yourself that freedom of essentially pausing whatever it is that is draining your energy, it all that energy goes, becomes now available into what it is that you are doing.
And so in, in terms of how, how we look at career transitions and pivots. That's one of those kind of methodologies, I guess it could be. , And how to think about it and how to process those feelings and those emotions about it.
Kathy Oneto: Is that something that you're using yourself as you're looking at like, what do I put on the back burner or put down for now as asking yourself those questions?
Philip VanDusen: Sure. And I've done that on in a lot of different ways throughout my whole career. The biggest one was very early in my career, I was trained as a fine artist. I have my MFA in painting. I actually started my career and up until the point I was essentially about 30 years old.
I was. A painter making my living with portrait painting and also selling my working galleries and doing per sporadic teaching when I could get teaching work. And I came to a point where I realized that fine art was not gonna be able to afford me the living that, or the, that I needed to have.
And, but as you are, as you come up as a fine artist, you're instilled with this. Romanticism that you're an artist and you, and you'll never be anything else. And if you are anything else, you're not really an artist. It's this very binary, like if you're an artist, you're always gonna be that, starve.
Get out there, do your thing. And so when I realized that I had to go or find some sort of other direction to make a living in, I had to put down painting and I had to unstretch 35 by six foot canvases and pack up all my paints and take my studio apart. And it was an incredibly gut wrenching period of time for me because I felt like I was betraying myself.
And, but what happened out of that? And the freedom that I felt and got and the energy that came from letting that thing that has been, that was draining me and causing me more angst than it was joy, was that it. Allowed me to metamorphosize into someone who had a career and was putting my creativity and my ability to teach people and all that sort of stuff into a different use.
That ended up being, much more fruitful in terms of having a career that was, that could support me. But, and I see that happen with a lot of people, is that, that moment though, when you have to let go of your, you have to send your baby down in the basket, down the Nile
it's tough. It's just really tough and there's no two ways about it. But when you come out on the other side of that, you come out with so much more energy than because, and you realize how much energy you had been spending in the internal strife and battle around trying to figure it out.
Kathy Oneto: It's so interesting.
I think one of the things we talked about as we were preparing for this conversation was this idea that like transitions take longer than we think. And we also talked about how this idea of sometimes I think you need to stay in what I was saying, this is borrowing language from, rites of passage and this idea of staying in the crucible and staying in that like burning intense, if you will, kind of change.
Because sometimes that's where that metamorphosis happens and you sometimes you can't rush it. You just wanna get through, but, this is gonna take its own time and yet what you just described. Was also this sense of really, we've talked before about identity is really a key component of change and like being able to be facile with our identities.
And I can imagine so difficult to essentially wrap up an identity, but like also not let it go, just allow that identity to take shape in a different way. And so, and what's interesting about what you said is like, I think there are times when. That transition can take a long time. You need to allow that time and space for it.
And yet what you also shared was almost sometimes you might need to, I don't know, be hard on yourself to be like, it's time you need to move on. You need to put this aside. What, do you have any thoughts on that, Philip? Just in terms of even that distinction of when to know? 'cause I think for you, I'll admit right now, even this last five years has been a transition for me and I would say I'm still in the midst of that transition.
It's not over. And yet this current one that I'm going through I, I know I can't rush it. I'm , I'm just in it and I, I need to allow myself the space and the time to let ideas and my experiences coalesce to then help guide me forward.
Philip VanDusen: Uh, yeah. I think it's when transitions are. Created, or the need for them is created by either choice or circumstance.
Something happens to you that's outside of your control, you lose a job, your company's restructured. Something happens. You, your spouse moves to another state. Your parent gets sick. , Some sort of outside consequence that forces you to. Adjust to it or to reconfigure how you're going about your career and your life in order to get through it.
And then there's also choice. So you may come to a point in your career where you're like, this just doesn't light my fire anymore, and I feel like, and I'm curious about this other avenue. Then you may, study up on it and moonlight a little bit, and then find a way to make a kind of shift or a pivot in your path.
But then there's also, and this is more the case of what happened to me when. It happened to me when I was going from being a fine artist to being a quote unquote commercial artist, moving in the fashion industry. But it also happened to me when I was moving from big corporate into being an independent.
And when I was bottoming out on big corporate, I had a big title, worked for a gigantic company. I made a lot of money, and I had my entire identity wrapped up in my business card basically. And when suddenly that didn't exist. I didn't have paycheck coming in. I didn't have that business card and the weight and the kind of respect that carried with it.
I suddenly was out there on my own and. But leaving that big corporate role was a choice of mine, but it was brought about by the fact that I was experiencing massive, massive, painful burnout that was manifesting itself in me physically and psychologically, and I had to walk away. So to a certain extent it was choice, but it was a choice that was brought about by difficulty and strife and.
That's the same kind of thing I felt when I was moving from being a fine artist and trying to find a career doing something else. And I think to varying degrees, almost everybody who chooses to go through some sort of transition is trying to find some sort of trans transformation in themselves. It's coming from a place of.
Circumstance and the circumstance might be choice and have to end in choice, or it might be something that's completely outside of yourself. But I think that , kind of negative vibration that happens inside of you when you're reaching an end point and you're realizing that something is going to have to change or shift or turn into something else.
I love your crucible example, 'cause it just reminds me of alchemy and old wizards trying to turn things into gold., It's kind of the same thing. It's like everything is melting down and you're trying to figure out how I can turn this into something else. And that's, , that's the challenge of all these sorts transformations, I think.
Kathy Oneto: Yes. I really love what you're bringing up. I think to pull through a couple of things in that. One is to really pay attention to when there's dissonance. Because part of what you're saying, like that dissonance is it's a signal, right? And part of that,, you physically feel it. It was manifesting for you physically and psychologically, emotionally.
And I, but I think on the other side as well is it's important to. Pay attention to residents just as much. So what is sparking for you? What is calling your attention? And both of those might be happening at the same time as you're going through these experiences. And I do wonder, Philip,, you've both.
You've had experiences where you were saying like, I may not get the language you just used, like where it's, it's either conscious or it's like the circumstances are, driving you to make a change. Has there been a difference when. , Like this transition you're going through now, you're very aware of the transition you're going through and you've been paying attention to it and you've been very intentional and thoughtful about it.
And I'm curious if there's been a difference when you are aware versus when you're, , and when you're aware and you're intentionally planning to go through it versus when it kind of. Thrust upon you. , Because I can say for myself, even though I'm very aware I'm going through this transition and that I've been going through a transition for some time, it doesn't necessarily make it easier in some respects that shouldn't, concern people.
I mean, I think it's just like, yeah, change is hard, transitions are hard. But it does mean that I can be thoughtful about how I. Surround myself and support myself as I go through this process. I'm curious what that, any reflection from you on that.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, when we were talking, I think the other day, I was talking about how a lot of the, the pivots in my career and I've had, I did a presentation on career transformations recently in livestream, and I went back through my history and I realized that I've gone through five major transitions in my career.
And I think that when, when that happens, there is this. Level of, we talked about this too. There's this level of inertia where you're, you're running ahead in your career and everything's going swimmingly, and then suddenly the tail hook goes out in the plane and you start experiencing some friction.
There's some sort of friction in your forward momentum and. That's when you have to put up your spidey sense and look for what you were just talking about, that level of resonance or curiosity, what is it, the thing that's going to lead you to the next thing or to the answer or to the shift that's going to make this more, more meaningful for you.
And so I think that sort of a, that sort of a process is one of those things that.
Is important to be very cognizant of as you're progressing through your career to try to evaluate and ask yourself those questions periodically. Am I cruising along? Am I feeling that my energy is being fed? Do I have some sort of friction that's starting to develop? If I do, where is that coming from and where?
What kind of curiosities do I have that are starting to appear on the periphery? That I might be able to nurture and grow that could lead me in another direction. And we, there's a, we've talked about this a million times, but I just wanna say it in this context, which is that. Careers are very often more like webs than ladders, and it's very easy to think about a career and like moving up the ladder of your career, right?
The next job, the next promotion, the next raise, the next responsibility. But what happens more likely is that we don't have linear careers that many times these choices or circumstances lead us in a direction that was not expected or something that we've had to make use of a very tangential skill in a completely different way and moved up, towards the center of the web, but having to take a side jog.
And I think that's one of those things that when you're younger, you don't really realize. If you were a little, paid a little more attention to that as going to be an eventual reality in your life, you might be a little kinder to yourself as you face these transitions. And that's one of those things that, I mentor and coach a lot of creative professionals.
As part of my consultancy, and that's one of those things that I try to, I try to be the person that I needed in early in my creative career to tell them the stuff that I wish I'd known back then, and this falls into that category. This is one of those things that I really wish I'd known back then.
Is that the career will not be entirely linear. And maybe I should have known that when I went from being a fine artist into, going into the fashion industry. But, it came as a surprise to me and it would be nice to have gotten a hint from somebody else that this is something I should have my antenna up around.
Kathy Oneto: I think it's really important, especially today, I think. Some folks may be hearing this at this point, right? Or I would imagine people at this point know like, you always have to be learning and you how, you should be flexible and don't think of it as a ladder. But the reality is the external world continues to define career progression in this way.
The majority of organizations, right? Success is moving up and I think that. What can be really important, especially in today's day and age, is actually. It's not just about moving up, but it's about widening and becoming a generalist and being willing to continually learn and grow. And I think sometimes it's can be helpful when organizations themselves then support that, right.
In terms of development. And a lot of organizations do, I mean, a lot of organizations give people assignments and move them around. But I don't know if that's, yeah, I don't dunno. So for those that are listening, Philip, like it's a minor few visually should Yeah. I didn't wanna
Philip VanDusen: just jump in and interrupt and say that's bs.
Kathy Oneto: Yes. Well, I mean, there are some, right? No, but it's, you're right. There are
Philip VanDusen: some,
Kathy Oneto: it's, but they're not the majority. And I, I really think, again, because of how world, how work and the world is changing right now. Everyone needs to have this mindset. And I know it's really difficult to think oh, why isn't the system and the structures out there for work?
Why can't I rely on them? Why, why are they changing? I, why, where is my path? And it's like, I think all of us are going to be asked to keep our eyes open and aware of. How industries are changing, how the world of work is changing because the reality is there are going to be just as there have been in the past many jobs that.
You might take in the future that do not exist right now. And so we have to be prepared for that and open to that and really be open to that adaptability. It's not to say that this is easy, but I think if you learn to embrace that mindset, it will make it easier.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah. And I think we're sitting at one of those very cataclysmic moments in time where there's the, there's this new technology which is incredibly disruptive, certainly in the creative fields, but also in a whole lot of fields from technology to engineering to. Politics to, to data resourcing, et cetera. And that's ai. And this could be a completely nother podcast.
And I don't want to go down this rabbit hole 'cause I just did a live stream and I talked about it for an hour just by myself. And, but AI is one of those moments that reminds me a lot of the advent of the computer age and the, the development of the ability to do desktop. Quote, unquote, desktop publishing and the, the, the design industry and the printing industries were all running around like chicken little at that time saying it's the death of, it's the death of creativity, the death of design, the death of, now that every mom and pop can.
Design on their desktop, we're all gonna lose our jobs. But what happened was the exact opposite and that that opened up this huge menu of things that we never thought that we'd even be able to do. And the people who survived were the ones who embraced the new technology, learned it, and took their creativity and their expertise, and used this as an additional skillset and an additional kind of jet fuel to even take things to a different.
Level. And I think that we're seeing that right now. And that happened and, and it's tough because AI is, is. It's impacting so many different industries in so many different ways, but it's coming at us like tsunami, and no one has it figures figured out because there are new tools hitting the marketplace that are just mind blowing every single day.
And so we're all in this kind of, we're unsteady. We're on one of those, what were those things called? Balance, the balance things he used to stand on with the, the wood thing in the center and it was like teeter-totter board. I forget what those are called. What are those called?
I dunno. Anyway, that's how we all are right now. We're standing on that thing, trying to find some sort of balance in equilibrium. I wanted to circle back though, just for a moment to talk about what you had said with companies or employers who are supporting growth and expansion. There are a few companies that do that who try to nurture you as an employee and give you new challenges and grow you through your career.
I had that when I worked at Gap. I came in as a junior designer 10 years later. I was managing five divisions and 65 people. Right. It was like a huge growth trajectory and they gave me a lot of rope to. Try new things, learn new things, take on new challenges. It was fantastic, but a lot of companies aren't like that.
A lot of companies really, companies love T-shaped skillsets. They like you to be really great at one thing so they can know what that one thing is and then they can make you do it. And if you, the business shifts and that one thing is not needed so much anymore, then you're on the street. But they love you to be a specialist.
And independent solopreneurs, entrepreneurs, the need is so much more to be a generalist or a V-shaped skillset, which is a great, expertise in one particular thing, but varying levels of expertise and a whole range of other things. And I think you were alluding to this, was that. Our economy now is really favoring the generalist as opposed to the specialist or the T-shaped skillset.
And I think for the most part though, that corporations have a tendency to favor the T-shaped people. And I think that. I consider myself essentially to be an insurance salesman, like I'm an insurance broker. I, I, my, my insurance. Explain that
Kathy Oneto: please.
Philip VanDusen: I coach and train people to how to have a career insurance policy.
And one of those things that I'm always crowing about is the need to develop a V-shaped skillset. Even if you are currently employed, and being encouraged to be T-shaped, really when it comes to career longevity, it behooves you to develop a level of generalism because eventually in your career you will be called on to, to, exercise that I think.
Kathy Oneto: No, I totally agree. And I think, of course the term that I tend to use is escaping me right now. But I think this idea of, what is your insurance policy like, is really valid. And I think we have to think about that for ourselves, and I think it's why I encourage people. To plant seeds ahead of when you think, , you need to be looking on the horizon and you use that term range.
I just wanna plug David Epstein's book range because I think, the idea of being a generalist is really important and that's what his book is about, and I think his book is highly relevant today in this transition. The other thing that I was gonna mention that you. Perhaps alluded to a little bit or, or just this like notion of like if you are the one that are, is taking yourself, from one space to another.
It often does fall on us to help connect the dots because of the reason that you said, which is companies, I really wish companies were better at this and really. Weren't just looking for those T-shaped people, that really saw people, and embraced diversity of skillset in terms of bringing people in and trusting that they can, knowing what, knowing that skills can be trained, but like really looking for those attributes, those mindsets, those generalists that can come in and really add tremendous value.
I think that is really important. But in the absence of that. It takes us to be the ones who can tell our stories and connect the dots around that., So that you do land and make that next move in that web.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, and I think that's where your network is so crucial because you have to be exposed to a range of these stories in order to understand what is possible.
One of the things that I did when I went independent and was a babe in the woods. And sitting there with my eyes, like saucers trying to figure all this out, was that I joined a paid Mastermind community. And I went in there just completely open to like, how is this done? How is the solopreneur entrepreneur building a personal brand sort of thing done?
And I had no idea. How what it was even possible. So I went into this community and I have experience doing branding and brand strategy and all that. So I just offered myself up. I say, Hey, if you need an audit of your website or an audit of your brand identity system or whatever, I'll do that for free.
And a lot of people took me up on it and I started to develop a whole lot of great relationships and what I learned as I was exposed to those people and got more deeply involved in the group. Was I was exposed to all of these things that people were doing that I had no idea even existed. Like lead magnets in order to build an email list, or the ability to start your own podcast or starting a YouTube channel and using a YouTube channel to drive, to create a body of work that is documenting your expertise in a particular area and then therefore people will see that and then come to you to utilize that skillset and get you work right, get you business all. . Having a professional speaking career or using the content that you're developing to develop sponsorships and affiliate relationships so you can make revenue off of the energy and time you're putting into developing content.
All of those things I had absolutely no idea even existed. And it took me being exposed to all these, these different people who were on, a whole range of levels and different paths of pursuing things like this to, to show me that A, they existed b. Like what ones did I get curious about or excited about hearing about and and think, oh man, maybe I could do that.
Maybe that would help me drive clients to me and. But unless I had taken that step and exposed myself to this,, and I'm an introvert, I don't do well in group situations. And so, and to expose myself to this kind of network and allow myself to be absolutely teachable, I mean, I was a mid 50-year-old guy who came out of a 25 year career, very successful career, and I had to go into this room and say, I don't know anything.
The only thing I know I'll give you for free. My creative expertise, my branding expertise, but all this entrepreneurial stuff, I don't know anything about that teach me. And when, when I saw it and experienced it and learned it, I suddenly saw all these opportunities I had for myself to do and try.
And so I think that's one of the key things that I wanna impart upon anyone who's listening is that if you find yourself going through one of these, any sort of transition, that it's very hard to get over that hurdle alone. And it's so much easier to do if you surround yourself with people who are on a similar journey and and maybe looking a little like what you want to be when you grow up.
Because they're the ones who are going to open your eyes to the things that are possible.
Kathy Oneto: I love this, Philip, and I think you and I both, I think advocate this point, which is if you're going through this type of transition, navigating an inflection point, don't go alone. And there are so many resources today to tap into and this notion of some people, I get working from home, I do get remote work.
I wanted it too. I like flexibility. I'm also an introvert and need time by myself, and I also know how critical it is for being to be with other people to build relationships to. Create a network for oneself and not in a yucky way. Like you and I met, oh my gosh, I don't even wanna count how many years ago, Philip.
And I'm so grateful. But your network, your community, I should say, like, think of it as a, your community does matter for being able to navigate these changes. And I think importantly, like you're saying. To even know what's possible and what's out there. And so I think I just advocate or just wanna underscore what you just shared because really putting yourself and surrounding yourself with others during these times in particular, but really all throughout your journey of life and work is just so important.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah. And it's so easy to. Let go of those relationships that you develop in your career as you move from thing to thing. And your and my relationship was born out of us working at the same agency in San Francisco and after I was let go from that agency and you stayed there a while longer and we stayed in touch and continued to.
Kind of check in with each other periodically. And then when I decided to leave my big, my corporate gig at the end when I was burning out. We reached out to each other and we were both in states of flux, and we decided to develop a, , a startup e-commerce company together, which we, built from scratch and nurtured.
And it was an amazing, amazing experience. And I, I credit that experience. Even though you could look at it from the outside and say, Kathy and I built this thing, and, in its infancy, we decided to close it. You could look at it and say, it's an, it was an absolute failure, but what that experience did for me.
Was actually, I came out of that burnout experience, wondering whether I even liked branding or designing more. Like I was just completely questioning my entire creative energy and that experience of building that brand from scratch and getting my hands dirty. And designing the website and the brand identity and the email marketing and the social media marketing that we did around that.
The product photography, the product assortment that we built. All of those things that you and I did in very bootstrap kind of way are what fed and brought my energy back to what I loved about design. And it was also this crucible of my exposure to just the beginnings of what digital entrepreneurship could look like.
What are those tools that are used in that sort of, in independent. Creative career pursuit. And so it's those sorts of things, that relationship that we had as coworkers and just the simple fact that we just kept periodically having little check-in conversations with each other enabled us to build this thing.
And then since that experience, we've stayed, I think even more close because that was such a formative experience, I think, for both of us. And. Our relationship as it's gone through the years has gotten deeper and richer and we've both acted, I think, to as mentors to each other through various parts of this.
And that's the sort of thing that I wish for everybody, right? But it's not easy. It's not easy to do, to say, okay. You know, this was a person who is I felt very close to or felt an affinity with when I was working in this old job. I haven't talked to them in five years, to reach out to them on LinkedIn or wherever and say, Hey, I'd love to just get back together with you and tell or stories about our old experience with each other and rekindle those sorts of relationships because that's where a lot of your.
Career insurance policy, those, that's where those premiums are paid. And so, yeah. I'll just stop right there.
Kathy Oneto: Yeah. And this doesn't have to feel transactional. It's actually you are one of my closest friends. I am so grateful for our friendship, mentorship, , our relationship. It's, been invaluable for me and sure on a professional level, but more on a personal level and so investing in relationships, as the research shows is the core to happiness.
And I can say, making sure that I was. Being focused on nurturing relationships in my life, like ours has definitely been a core part of just my life satisfaction and fulfillment. Thank you for,
Philip VanDusen: I wanna turn this conversation just a little bit into control of it 'cause I want to ask you a couple questions.
Kathy Oneto: Okay. Okay.
Philip VanDusen: And one, one conversation that we had recently, which I was really struck by, I want to see if we can dive back in and. And dip back into that. Well, a little bit for the listeners, and that is that, as we've worked , and mentored each other in the last few years, you've had a level of.
Anxiety and struggle around what you are building. I don't know what I'm building. Like I don't know exactly what this business is. And when we were talking recently you were talking more about the fact that it's not the final product, not this built thing. That's really what it's about for you.
It's really more about the process. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Kathy Oneto: Yeah, this has been, ever since I've been on this journey, I think that I have had. I've been wrestling with, if you will, like, how do I define what my work is and how I'm spending my time? And , I've talked with others and on the podcast before, I think around this idea that I've.
Describe my work as paid work, service work, and creative work. And I do think, see part of what I'm doing around sustainable ambition is my creative work. And I think what's been interesting more recently around this is,, and I'm a little embarrassed to sh to share this in some respects, like I think that.
When I went on this journey, I thought, okay, well I do, there is an economic side to work for all of us, right? It needs to pay the bills. And so as I started on this journey, I thought that part of this was I'm building a business. And that's partly true but I think that really. A bigger part of what I've been creating for myself is how do I lead a creative artistic life?
And I think that's why early on I said, Hey, I have this, area of work that is my creative work. And I've, I think over time I really have been wrestling with this. How do I think about, creativity from a sense of, creativity for oneself, just as you talked about the creative artist ring versus being a commercial artist, right?
And what am I doing here? Is this, a sense of part of my own following my curiosity and my creativity? Or is it for a commercial sense? And I'll just admit like, that's a real tension for me. And yet I think that I think that I've. I think what's interesting about this to some degree that I, I wanna pull through for folks is sometimes I create anxiety for myself around why am I not doing certain things?
Or it's almost as if my somatic response is keeping me from doing certain things, and I've wondered, why can't I get myself to do X, Y, or Z, and. I, my underlying sense is that it's because it wasn't my truth around what I was building. And I think that if I recognize, like perhaps, and I, I think I've known this all along to some degree, but I still wrestle with it, has been, , part of what I am.
Doing through this process and my behavior actually confirms is that I'm allowing myself to cultivate a creative artistic life in the sense I say create, I create art through left brain thinking. And it's not to say it's why I think I'm drawn to talking to so many creative people, which is I think that I just like many creative people.
I need to have this part of my work that is the economic side of it that is allows me to, pay the bills, if you will. And I need a part of my work that really feeds my creativity. And honestly, I think that has been true for me throughout my career, I ran into a former boss. I didn't just run into, but I had a conversation with a former boss and I was telling her what I was working on and she said, , you always had something outside of work that you were pursuing, so be it being a triathlete or running marathons or this activity.
And she's right. I've always needed. Another outlet that I would say is a portion of my work that feeds me. So I don't know if that's what you were trying to get at Philip in terms of asking or prompting that question, but Yeah.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah. I think what you were saying to an extent, and I guess I was more leading in my question, was that.
It's not so much a perfect picture of what the finished product of the business is going to be, and then running that very specifically defined thing that has clear borders to it, that there's a level of amorphic. Growth and expansion and contraction that happens in any solopreneur or freelance or consultative business is that we are constantly, , trying and experimenting with things or exploring curiosities or retracting because we've taken on too much or just developing a body of work that may not be.
Myopic it may not have a singular focus, and that's okay, because I think a lot of us just think I have to have a very clear, job description. My LinkedIn profile has to, have five words after my name. I want it to be really clear. And sometimes it's not clear.
And sometimes it's okay. Especially as we're talking about like leading a career, and expressing it like a creative arc, is that there is this level of experimentation and non definition and becoming that I think is more exciting than the finished product. The finished product is when you retire, you're dead. You, go on. Social security. I think it's really more about the becoming than the finished product because the becoming the messy middle is where all the excitement I think really happens because you're in the process of bringing something to life.
Kathy Oneto: Yeah. I, I think this is so true, right? Just to echo that, that we can't always. See what the end point is, and you have to, I've shared here on the podcast that you learn about yourself through the pursuit of your ambitions. So, we need to embrace that as part of our journeys. And again, it's not always comfortable, but I think it's, actually, I think we can grow to learn to embrace this and appreciate it a lot more. Philip, we've covered a lot of ground. Yeah. Thank you for this conversation. Yeah, it was great. Yes. I'm curious if there's just, is there a final piece of wisdom you wanna leave people with today?
Philip VanDusen: I think it is that insurance is one of those things no one likes to think about, right? No one wants to have an insurance salesman at their door, but it's one of those things that when something happens and you don't have insurance, you wish you had it. And so, as I was thinking and writing some notes for our conversation today, I wrote that down.
I'm an insurance broker. I never thought of it that way, that's my job description, but essentially these days, it is in my work with my coaching clients, is I am trying to equip them with the skill sets, the V-shaped skill sets, the strategy, the understanding of our industry that's going to help them be resilient.
And I want to be that person who I needed when I was coming up. And luckily I had a couple people who were mentors in my career who acted at very important parts in my life as a guide, as a Sherpa. But I think that the parts of wisdom that I wanna impart are, you don't have to do this alone.
But you do have to buy some insurance.
Kathy Oneto: My, my closing words echo yours. So I remember now the word that I use around insurance, which is like to create optionality for yourself. Like to, and I think that's really what you're talking about, like
Philip VanDusen: agency developing professional agency.
Kathy Oneto: Yeah. I mean, because expanding, your skillset or what you're learning or understanding of the business like, it creates optionality, right? So you're not just connected or tied to just one thing. And I think the thing I wanna connect to that as well is this. Point of being in community and especially right now, it's actually like, this is an insight that just came to me in this conversation.
It's been something that's been brewing because so many people have shared how wow. Trying to learn AI and keep up with ai. Like where do I find the time I'm, it's already, my schedule's already packed, right? Like, how do I carve out space and idea that I've had? And I think it's really re resident. Sorry, I think it's really relevant is this idea of perhaps creating a learning community for yourself.
Like how can you , band together with others so that you don't feel like the learning is just on you, that others can learn different aspects of it, come back together, share with each other. And so again, it's just to come back to this idea that community is really valuable, important, and, um.
Can you tap into that or create a learning community to support you on this journey?
Philip VanDusen: I agree. Because it, it creates basically a geometric, multiplication of your exploration, like what you said exactly. Is what happens in some of the communities that I'm in, is that. We're all exploring different aspects of it, and then we have successes and failures with that.
And then we find one technique or tactic or tool that we think is like really awesome and we bring that back to the group and everyone is doing that. So it's like when you met, when you look at that, you're realizing by. By engaging in this community, I'm benefiting from the experimentation of 10 other people at the same time.
And it adds rocket fuel to your growth and the speed of your learning. And we all need that so desperately right now because it is such a tsunami of newness. It's so easy to feel completely overwhelmed. I want to tell very one, one very quick story. I coach a guy who works at Apple and. He is in charge of a group.
I'm, and I can't get too specific, but essentially. AI is moving its way into the Apple ecosystem. Very, importantly, they're a computer company and his team is being encouraged very, very heavily to incorporate I AI into the processes of what they do. And all of them are running so quickly and trying to do their jobs that they have no time for it.
And they're also. And these are techno technological people. They're scared of what it's going to do to their role or how they're going to be able to do their jobs. And so they're hesitant to incorporate it or play with it or try or experiment with it. And this is Apple. This is one of the biggest technology it is the biggest technology company in the world.
And there are people who are. The people who are developing Apple stuff who are in this exact same boat. So if you're out there and you're freaking out about AI and you're having a hard time getting your head around it, the best and the brightest are in the exact same boat. So don't feel bad about it.
Just don't try to do it alone.
Kathy Oneto: Yeah. As I should said at the beginning, Philip, you're one of my favorite people to have a conversation with, so thank you for this one. You're mine too. I really appreciate it. It
Philip VanDusen: was
Kathy Oneto: totally
Philip VanDusen: fun.
Kathy Oneto: Until next time.
Philip VanDusen: Nice talking to you, Kathy.
